Discussion:
Anonymous variables (moved "deferred destruction" topic)
(too old to reply)
Francisco Lopes
2016-07-10 17:37:00 UTC
Permalink
I'm moving the "deferred destruction"
<https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msg/std-proposals/8lsCinlSO1w/S6zsTqrYCQAJ>topic
here to make things clearer.

The current proposal idea I'm moving forward with allowing (semi) anonymous
variables.
The idea is to adopt _ as a special variable name that supports overriding,
but in a backwards
compatible way:


- _ should be allowed as a variable name.
- _ should be allowed in redeclarations, overriding the previous
declaration in the same scope.

This special variable would, for example, improve usage of:

- any kind of guards, like std::lock_guard for example
- multiple return (P0217R2)
- scope_exit (P0052R2)

Here's some example code showing these features:


#include <mutex>
#include <tuple>
#include <scope>
#include <thread>
#include <memory>
#include <iostream>

using namespace std;

mutex m1, m2;

tuple<int, int> divide(int dividend, int divisor) {
return make_tuple(dividend / divisor, dividend % divisor);
}

int main() {
auto _ = make_scope_exit([]{ cout << " bye"; }); // no need to care
about scope_exit naming
auto _ = make_scope_exit([]{ cout << "bye"; }); // _ is the only
variable name that supports being overriding
lock_guard<mutex> _(m1), _(m2); // it always refers to
the last declaration in the current scope
auto [_, remainder] = divide(14, 3); // works on multiple
return
}

Thanks Tony V E for the input in the previous thread
<https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msg/std-proposals/8lsCinlSO1w/JWkYRnndCQAJ>
.
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Tony V E
2016-07-10 17:52:52 UTC
Permalink
I think "last declaration" is somewhat good for:

Foo _{ 1, 2, 3 };
_.setX(4); // unfortunately not available via constructor
Foo _{ 5, 6, 7 };
_.setX(8);

But I worry about cases like:

// currently valid code
Foo _{1,2,3};
_.use();
more();
code();
if (lots())
of();
else
code();
code();
code();
code();
_.use_again();

And then someone copy-pastes another _ snippet in the middle.

// currently valid code
Foo _{1,2,3};
_.use();
more();
code();
if (lots())
of();
else
code();
Foo _{5,6,7};
code();
code();
code();
_.use_again();

Particularly when '_.use_again()' is '_.unlock()' on a scope-guard.

Of course, anyone who is currently using _ as a variable name AND is using
it throughout their function, probably has other problems.

But I can imagine code that was using _ as a lock guard, then later someone
realized that the guard should unlock early, so just added a _.unlock()
without renaming the variable.

And then, later, the code evolves some more and another _ is added in the
middle.

That is, unfortunately, how code is written.

Tony




On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 1:37 PM, Francisco Lopes <
Post by Francisco Lopes
I'm moving the "deferred destruction"
<https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msg/std-proposals/8lsCinlSO1w/S6zsTqrYCQAJ>topic
here to make things clearer.
The current proposal idea I'm moving forward with allowing (semi)
anonymous variables.
The idea is to adopt _ as a special variable name that supports
overriding, but in a backwards
- _ should be allowed as a variable name.
- _ should be allowed in redeclarations, overriding the previous
declaration in the same scope.
- any kind of guards, like std::lock_guard for example
- multiple return (P0217R2)
- scope_exit (P0052R2)
#include <mutex>
#include <tuple>
#include <scope>
#include <thread>
#include <memory>
#include <iostream>
using namespace std;
mutex m1, m2;
tuple<int, int> divide(int dividend, int divisor) {
return make_tuple(dividend / divisor, dividend % divisor);
}
int main() {
auto _ = make_scope_exit([]{ cout << " bye"; }); // no need to care
about scope_exit naming
auto _ = make_scope_exit([]{ cout << "bye"; }); // _ is the only
variable name that supports being overriding
lock_guard<mutex> _(m1), _(m2); // it always refers
to the last declaration in the current scope
auto [_, remainder] = divide(14, 3); // works on multiple
return
}
Thanks Tony V E for the input in the previous thread
<https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msg/std-proposals/8lsCinlSO1w/JWkYRnndCQAJ>
.
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-10 18:09:37 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the input again. Well that's an awful sample of bad practices, I
agree with your point
though. So, between overring with accessibility vs overrinding disallowing
accessibility, I'm left
in doubt which is nicer.

In any case I'd advocate that _.foo() should be frowned upon always.

Regards
Post by Tony V E
Foo _{ 1, 2, 3 };
_.setX(4); // unfortunately not available via constructor
Foo _{ 5, 6, 7 };
_.setX(8);
// currently valid code
Foo _{1,2,3};
_.use();
more();
code();
if (lots())
of();
else
code();
code();
code();
code();
_.use_again();
And then someone copy-pastes another _ snippet in the middle.
// currently valid code
Foo _{1,2,3};
_.use();
more();
code();
if (lots())
of();
else
code();
Foo _{5,6,7};
code();
code();
code();
_.use_again();
Particularly when '_.use_again()' is '_.unlock()' on a scope-guard.
Of course, anyone who is currently using _ as a variable name AND is using
it throughout their function, probably has other problems.
But I can imagine code that was using _ as a lock guard, then later
someone realized that the guard should unlock early, so just added a
_.unlock() without renaming the variable.
And then, later, the code evolves some more and another _ is added in the
middle.
That is, unfortunately, how code is written.
Tony
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 1:37 PM, Francisco Lopes <
Post by Francisco Lopes
I'm moving the "deferred destruction"
<https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msg/std-proposals/8lsCinlSO1w/S6zsTqrYCQAJ>topic
here to make things clearer.
The current proposal idea I'm moving forward with allowing (semi)
anonymous variables.
The idea is to adopt _ as a special variable name that supports
overriding, but in a backwards
- _ should be allowed as a variable name.
- _ should be allowed in redeclarations, overriding the previous
declaration in the same scope.
- any kind of guards, like std::lock_guard for example
- multiple return (P0217R2)
- scope_exit (P0052R2)
#include <mutex>
#include <tuple>
#include <scope>
#include <thread>
#include <memory>
#include <iostream>
using namespace std;
mutex m1, m2;
tuple<int, int> divide(int dividend, int divisor) {
return make_tuple(dividend / divisor, dividend % divisor);
}
int main() {
auto _ = make_scope_exit([]{ cout << " bye"; }); // no need to care
about scope_exit naming
auto _ = make_scope_exit([]{ cout << "bye"; }); // _ is the only
variable name that supports being overriding
lock_guard<mutex> _(m1), _(m2); // it always refers
to the last declaration in the current scope
auto [_, remainder] = divide(14, 3); // works on multiple
return
}
Thanks Tony V E for the input in the previous thread
<https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msg/std-proposals/8lsCinlSO1w/JWkYRnndCQAJ>
.
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Patrice Roy
2016-07-10 18:39:40 UTC
Permalink
One could envision "fun" things such as :

int _ = 3;
auto _ = _; // code maintenance just became even more frightening

An idea would be to make use of _ incorrect past initialization, such that
the use of _ on the right hand would not compile, but I guess someone could
want to use _ as a way to avoid caring about a pass-by-reference argument
in some function :

pair<string,float> fct(int);
void f(int &, int&);
auto g() {
int x = 3;
auto _ = ""; // useless but would be legal
auto [s,_] = fct(x); // fair enough, can live with this...
f(x, _); // don't care about the 2nd argument... this seems like a
legitimate use case, I guess, but f(_,_) and other unusual things become
possible...
return x + s.size();
}

I'm not totally against this feature, but it deserves detailed scrutiny
before moving ahead...



2016-07-10 14:09 GMT-04:00 Francisco Lopes <
Post by Francisco Lopes
Thanks for the input again. Well that's an awful sample of bad practices,
I agree with your point
though. So, between overring with accessibility vs overrinding disallowing
accessibility, I'm left
in doubt which is nicer.
In any case I'd advocate that _.foo() should be frowned upon always.
Regards
Post by Tony V E
Foo _{ 1, 2, 3 };
_.setX(4); // unfortunately not available via constructor
Foo _{ 5, 6, 7 };
_.setX(8);
// currently valid code
Foo _{1,2,3};
_.use();
more();
code();
if (lots())
of();
else
code();
code();
code();
code();
_.use_again();
And then someone copy-pastes another _ snippet in the middle.
// currently valid code
Foo _{1,2,3};
_.use();
more();
code();
if (lots())
of();
else
code();
Foo _{5,6,7};
code();
code();
code();
_.use_again();
Particularly when '_.use_again()' is '_.unlock()' on a scope-guard.
Of course, anyone who is currently using _ as a variable name AND is
using it throughout their function, probably has other problems.
But I can imagine code that was using _ as a lock guard, then later
someone realized that the guard should unlock early, so just added a
_.unlock() without renaming the variable.
And then, later, the code evolves some more and another _ is added in the
middle.
That is, unfortunately, how code is written.
Tony
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 1:37 PM, Francisco Lopes <
Post by Francisco Lopes
I'm moving the "deferred destruction"
<https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msg/std-proposals/8lsCinlSO1w/S6zsTqrYCQAJ>topic
here to make things clearer.
The current proposal idea I'm moving forward with allowing (semi)
anonymous variables.
The idea is to adopt _ as a special variable name that supports
overriding, but in a backwards
- _ should be allowed as a variable name.
- _ should be allowed in redeclarations, overriding the previous
declaration in the same scope.
- any kind of guards, like std::lock_guard for example
- multiple return (P0217R2)
- scope_exit (P0052R2)
#include <mutex>
#include <tuple>
#include <scope>
#include <thread>
#include <memory>
#include <iostream>
using namespace std;
mutex m1, m2;
tuple<int, int> divide(int dividend, int divisor) {
return make_tuple(dividend / divisor, dividend % divisor);
}
int main() {
auto _ = make_scope_exit([]{ cout << " bye"; }); // no need to care
about scope_exit naming
auto _ = make_scope_exit([]{ cout << "bye"; }); // _ is the only
variable name that supports being overriding
lock_guard<mutex> _(m1), _(m2); // it always refers
to the last declaration in the current scope
auto [_, remainder] = divide(14, 3); // works on
multiple return
}
Thanks Tony V E for the input in the previous thread
<https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msg/std-proposals/8lsCinlSO1w/JWkYRnndCQAJ>
.
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Brandon Kentel
2016-07-10 18:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Isn't _ typically / often used as alias for GNU gettext()? This could cause
some resistance to the proposal as it is (regardless of how bad -- though
convenient -- a choice it was to use this alias). Maybe it could be dealt
with by treating this as a special case in the grammar? Again, likely to
meet some resistance. Maybe reuse the now defunct register keyword /s ?
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-10 18:51:24 UTC
Permalink
Initially I was thinking about using ... instead of _ to avoid such naming
issue. If adopting ...
as the placeholder, then I'd go for it not being referenciable at all, and
would touch the current
usage of _.

Personally I'm open to such changes because I'm caring more for the core
functionality.
Post by Brandon Kentel
Isn't _ typically / often used as alias for GNU gettext()? This could
cause some resistance to the proposal as it is (regardless of how bad --
though convenient -- a choice it was to use this alias). Maybe it could be
dealt with by treating this as a special case in the grammar? Again, likely
to meet some resistance. Maybe reuse the now defunct register keyword /s ?
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-10 18:54:17 UTC
Permalink
woudn't touch*
Post by Francisco Lopes
Initially I was thinking about using ... instead of _ to avoid such naming
issue. If adopting ...
as the placeholder, then I'd go for it not being referenciable at all, and
would touch the current
usage of _.
Personally I'm open to such changes because I'm caring more for the core
functionality.
Post by Brandon Kentel
Isn't _ typically / often used as alias for GNU gettext()? This could
cause some resistance to the proposal as it is (regardless of how bad --
though convenient -- a choice it was to use this alias). Maybe it could be
dealt with by treating this as a special case in the grammar? Again, likely
to meet some resistance. Maybe reuse the now defunct register keyword /s ?
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Ville Voutilainen
2016-07-10 18:55:20 UTC
Permalink
On 10 July 2016 at 21:51, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Initially I was thinking about using ... instead of _ to avoid such naming
issue. If adopting ...
Don't go there, that idea clashes badly with packs.

Also, this is https://cplusplus.github.io/EWG/ewg-active.html#35
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-10 19:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Many thanks for that reference Ville. I see there was invitation for a
paper, but
no more information about it going forward, is there anything going forward
already?

I think as demonstrated, with the current and future additions to the
standard,
more usecases are showing up in favor of such feature.
Post by Ville Voutilainen
On 10 July 2016 at 21:51, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Initially I was thinking about using ... instead of _ to avoid such
naming
Post by Francisco Lopes
issue. If adopting ...
Don't go there, that idea clashes badly with packs.
Also, this is https://cplusplus.github.io/EWG/ewg-active.html#35
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Ville Voutilainen
2016-07-10 19:19:27 UTC
Permalink
On 10 July 2016 at 22:14, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Many thanks for that reference Ville. I see there was invitation for a
paper, but
no more information about it going forward, is there anything going forward
already?
I think as demonstrated, with the current and future additions to the
standard,
more usecases are showing up in favor of such feature.
There hasn't been recent work on it, none after that invitation to
write a paper, as far as I'm aware of.
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j***@unbuggy.com
2016-07-10 20:10:03 UTC
Permalink
_ is already used as a placeholder in the MPL. It's also sometimes used as a local macro name. You have a neat idea, but _ seems pretty well spoken for. It's also unclear that this proposal would solve a real pain point, or whether it's convenience would be outweighed by (arguably) less readable code.

I would find the feature more useful if it offered slightly less functionality; in particular, I'd like a guarantee that no operation at all can be performed on such variables except the automatic destruction at end of scope.

To these ends, would it make sense to dispense with the variable name altogether, making the objects truly anonymous?

auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx1);
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx2);
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D. B.
2016-07-10 20:20:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@unbuggy.com
_ is already used as a placeholder in the MPL. It's also sometimes used as
a local macro name. You have a neat idea, but _ seems pretty well spoken
for. It's also unclear that this proposal would solve a real pain point,
or whether it's convenience would be outweighed by (arguably) less readable
code.
I would find the feature more useful if it offered slightly less
functionality; in particular, I'd like a guarantee that no operation at all
can be performed on such variables except the automatic destruction at end
of scope.
To these ends, would it make sense to dispense with the variable name
altogether, making the objects truly anonymous?
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx1);
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx2);
Can we be sure no one will ever want to specify a different type at LHS in
order to force a conversion operator from RHS? I know use-cases for this
are limited, but are they *that* limited?
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D. B.
2016-07-10 20:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. B.
Post by j***@unbuggy.com
_ is already used as a placeholder in the MPL. It's also sometimes used
as a local macro name. You have a neat idea, but _ seems pretty well
spoken for. It's also unclear that this proposal would solve a real pain
point, or whether it's convenience would be outweighed by (arguably) less
readable code.
I would find the feature more useful if it offered slightly less
functionality; in particular, I'd like a guarantee that no operation at all
can be performed on such variables except the automatic destruction at end
of scope.
To these ends, would it make sense to dispense with the variable name
altogether, making the objects truly anonymous?
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx1);
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx2);
Can we be sure no one will ever want to specify a different type at LHS in
order to force a conversion operator from RHS? I know use-cases for this
are limited, but are they *that* limited?
Course, maybe i'm just being overly literal, and you meant that "auto"
could be any type, in which case, carry on
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-10 20:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Agree with D.B., I'd not remove this from the original idea. Not allowing
referencing _ once it's
declared multiple times in the same scope (a case that would exist solely
after the feature getting in)
seems acceptable tough. It's Tony V E original proposition in the previous
thread.
Post by D. B.
Post by j***@unbuggy.com
_ is already used as a placeholder in the MPL. It's also sometimes used
as a local macro name. You have a neat idea, but _ seems pretty well
spoken for. It's also unclear that this proposal would solve a real pain
point, or whether it's convenience would be outweighed by (arguably) less
readable code.
I would find the feature more useful if it offered slightly less
functionality; in particular, I'd like a guarantee that no operation at all
can be performed on such variables except the automatic destruction at end
of scope.
To these ends, would it make sense to dispense with the variable name
altogether, making the objects truly anonymous?
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx1);
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx2);
Can we be sure no one will ever want to specify a different type at LHS in
order to force a conversion operator from RHS? I know use-cases for this
are limited, but are they *that* limited?
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-10 20:33:36 UTC
Permalink
By the way, fyi, the discussion referred by Ville tells about using __
instead of _
Post by Francisco Lopes
Agree with D.B., I'd not remove this from the original idea. Not allowing
referencing _ once it's
declared multiple times in the same scope (a case that would exist solely
after the feature getting in)
seems acceptable tough. It's Tony V E original proposition in the previous
thread.
Post by D. B.
Post by j***@unbuggy.com
_ is already used as a placeholder in the MPL. It's also sometimes used
as a local macro name. You have a neat idea, but _ seems pretty well
spoken for. It's also unclear that this proposal would solve a real pain
point, or whether it's convenience would be outweighed by (arguably) less
readable code.
I would find the feature more useful if it offered slightly less
functionality; in particular, I'd like a guarantee that no operation at all
can be performed on such variables except the automatic destruction at end
of scope.
To these ends, would it make sense to dispense with the variable name
altogether, making the objects truly anonymous?
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx1);
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx2);
Can we be sure no one will ever want to specify a different type at LHS
in order to force a conversion operator from RHS? I know use-cases for this
are limited, but are they *that* limited?
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-10 21:17:21 UTC
Permalink
Related: I just noticed that it seems compiler writers have to special-case
treatment of
std guards to not give unused variable warnings?

#include <mutex>
#include <iostream>

using namespace std;

mutex m;

int main() {
lock_guard<mutex> a(m);
int b{0};
}

g++ -std=c++14 -O2 -Wall -pedantic -pthread main.cpp && ./a.out

main.cpp: In function 'int main()':

main.cpp:10:9: warning: unused variable 'b' [-Wunused-variable]

int b(0);


So, the unused variable analysis have to care about not warning on special
cases
where non-usage is the norm.
Post by Francisco Lopes
By the way, fyi, the discussion referred by Ville tells about using __
instead of _
Post by Francisco Lopes
Agree with D.B., I'd not remove this from the original idea. Not allowing
referencing _ once it's
declared multiple times in the same scope (a case that would exist solely
after the feature getting in)
seems acceptable tough. It's Tony V E original proposition in the
previous thread.
Post by D. B.
Post by j***@unbuggy.com
_ is already used as a placeholder in the MPL. It's also sometimes used
as a local macro name. You have a neat idea, but _ seems pretty well
spoken for. It's also unclear that this proposal would solve a real pain
point, or whether it's convenience would be outweighed by (arguably) less
readable code.
I would find the feature more useful if it offered slightly less
functionality; in particular, I'd like a guarantee that no operation at all
can be performed on such variables except the automatic destruction at end
of scope.
To these ends, would it make sense to dispense with the variable name
altogether, making the objects truly anonymous?
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx1);
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx2);
Can we be sure no one will ever want to specify a different type at LHS
in order to force a conversion operator from RHS? I know use-cases for this
are limited, but are they *that* limited?
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Nevin Liber
2016-07-10 21:25:43 UTC
Permalink
On 10 July 2016 at 16:17, Francisco Lopes <
Post by Francisco Lopes
Related: I just noticed that it seems compiler writers have to
special-case treatment of
std guards to not give unused variable warnings?
Far more likely that they don't warn on types that have non-trivial
destructors.
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Matthew Woehlke
2016-07-11 18:07:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Francisco Lopes
By the way, fyi, the discussion referred by Ville tells about using __
instead of _
I've probably said this before... what about `.`?

auto . = lock_guard(m_mutex);

Since `.` is not a valid identifier, there are no possible conflicts
with existing code. (Also, I think it looks slightly prettier :-).)

...`:` could be a candidate also...

As Nevin noted, `__` is reserved for *implementations*. In theory at
least, there might be an implementation actually *using* `__` that would
be broken if `__` were used for unnamed locals.
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 19:16:56 UTC
Permalink
Em segunda-feira, 11 de julho de 2016 15:07:11 UTC-3, Matthew Woehlke
Post by Matthew Woehlke
Post by Francisco Lopes
By the way, fyi, the discussion referred by Ville tells about using __
instead of _
I've probably said this before... what about `.`?
auto . = lock_guard(m_mutex);
Since `.` is not a valid identifier, there are no possible conflicts
with existing code. (Also, I think it looks slightly prettier :-).)
I also think it's pretty, I've thought about it but didn't comment. The
reason
I find it pretty is that it resembles mathematical notation f(·)

...`:` could be a candidate also...
Ville commented before it woudn't be a good idea because it would clash
with parameter packs.

But, for example, Rust has both "_" and "..", C++ has no use for "..", which
coud be used, although I'd prefer to see ".." always matching 0 or more, for
which purpose "..." already fits.

So, for me it's fine having stuff like

lock_guard<mutex> .(a), .(b);

auto [ . , x , . ] = foo()

or

auto [ . , x , ... ] = foo()

As Nevin noted, `__` is reserved for *implementations*. In theory at
Post by Matthew Woehlke
least, there might be an implementation actually *using* `__` that would
be broken if `__` were used for unnamed locals.
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Matthew Woehlke
2016-07-11 19:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Francisco Lopes
Em segunda-feira, 11 de julho de 2016 15:07:11 UTC-3, Matthew Woehlke
Post by Matthew Woehlke
...`:` could be a candidate also...
Ville commented before it woudn't be a good idea because it would clash
with parameter packs.
I think you misread :-): the proposed placeholder was `:` (note: the
backticks are just to show code; they're not part of the proposed
syntax). The "..." in the above was merely grammatical.

Offhand, I can't think of a use of a single ':' except in the ternary
operator, so it seems available...

That all said, `.` would be my first choice.
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Thiago Macieira
2016-07-11 19:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Woehlke
As Nevin noted, `__` is reserved for *implementations*. In theory at
Post by Matthew Woehlke
least, there might be an implementation actually *using* `__` that would
be broken if `__` were used for unnamed locals.
In practice, there is.
--
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Nevin Liber
2016-07-10 21:32:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. B.
Post by j***@unbuggy.com
_ is already used as a placeholder in the MPL. It's also sometimes used
as a local macro name. You have a neat idea, but _ seems pretty well
spoken for. It's also unclear that this proposal would solve a real pain
point, or whether it's convenience would be outweighed by (arguably) less
readable code.
I would find the feature more useful if it offered slightly less
functionality; in particular, I'd like a guarantee that no operation at all
can be performed on such variables except the automatic destruction at end
of scope.
To these ends, would it make sense to dispense with the variable name
altogether, making the objects truly anonymous?
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx1);
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx2);
Can we be sure no one will ever want to specify a different type at LHS in
order to force a conversion operator from RHS? I know use-cases for this
are limited, but are they *that* limited?
Can we be sure? Of course not.

If the user wishes to do this, they should be able to either cast the
result or just name a variable. It need not cover every possible weird use
case.
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Nevin Liber
2016-07-10 21:46:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@unbuggy.com
_ is already used as a placeholder in the MPL. It's also sometimes used as
a local macro name. You have a neat idea, but _ seems pretty well spoken
for. It's also unclear that this proposal would solve a real pain point,
or whether it's convenience would be outweighed by (arguably) less readable
code.
I would find the feature more useful if it offered slightly less
functionality; in particular, I'd like a guarantee that no operation at all
can be performed on such variables except the automatic destruction at end
of scope.
This is, of course the problem. You are looking to change functionality
which has been there since C90 (or even longer). This would break working
code and introduce an incompatibility with C. You could possibly mitigate
the latter with a complicated rule (for instance, it only has the desired
semantics for types with non-trivial destructors), but if you are stealing
a name, you cannot help but break the former.

__ is different than _ in that it is reserved for implementations, so
theoretically the breakage wouldn't be as bad.

IMO, finding a way to express this w/o using an identifier is a better
approach (although then comes the debate about the feature being worth the
cost of new syntax).
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Ville Voutilainen
2016-07-10 21:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nevin Liber
IMO, finding a way to express this w/o using an identifier is a better
approach (although then comes the debate about the feature being worth the
cost of new syntax).
Also consider an idea like
Foobar = f();
vs. the syntax that already has a meaning, aka
Foobar() = f();
and the unfortunate subtlety of that difference.
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Zhihao Yuan
2016-07-10 22:25:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 4:51 PM, Ville Voutilainen
Post by Ville Voutilainen
Post by Nevin Liber
IMO, finding a way to express this w/o using an identifier is a better
approach (although then comes the debate about the feature being worth the
cost of new syntax).
Also consider an idea like
Foobar = f();
vs. the syntax that already has a meaning, aka
Foobar() = f();
and the unfortunate subtlety of that difference.
My suggestion has always been a simple

with (auto lk = unique_lock(lk)) {
}

which is already available as `if (auto ...; true)`,
and

with (lock_guard(lk)) {
}

whose the wording for introducing a unique name
has already presented in the structured binding
proposal.
--
Zhihao Yuan, ID lichray
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
___________________________________________________
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Matthew Woehlke
2016-07-11 18:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhihao Yuan
My suggestion has always been a simple
with (auto lk = unique_lock(lk)) {
}
which is already available as `if (auto ...; true)`,
and
with (lock_guard(lk)) {
}
whose the wording for introducing a unique name
has already presented in the structured binding
proposal.
Would this be legal?

with (lock_guard(a); lock_guard(b))
{ ... }

I definitely have cases where I want more than one "guard". I'd prefer
to not need to create a scope for each one.
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D. B.
2016-07-11 18:20:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Woehlke
Post by Zhihao Yuan
My suggestion has always been a simple
with (auto lk = unique_lock(lk)) {
}
which is already available as `if (auto ...; true)`,
and
with (lock_guard(lk)) {
}
whose the wording for introducing a unique name
has already presented in the structured binding
proposal.
Would this be legal?
with (lock_guard(a); lock_guard(b))
{ ... }
I definitely have cases where I want more than one "guard". I'd prefer
to not need to create a scope for each one.
--
Matthew
Can someone explain to me what this actually offers over

{ std::lock_guard(whatever);
// do stuff
}

because I must be missing something, as right now, it just looks like
adding a new keyword for no reason whatsoever, and eschewing a perfectly
valid use of temporary blocks in the process. IOW, completely redundant and
counterproductive.

so i must've missed an undeniable benefit, right?
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D. B.
2016-07-11 18:21:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. B.
Post by Matthew Woehlke
Post by Zhihao Yuan
My suggestion has always been a simple
with (auto lk = unique_lock(lk)) {
}
which is already available as `if (auto ...; true)`,
and
with (lock_guard(lk)) {
}
whose the wording for introducing a unique name
has already presented in the structured binding
proposal.
Would this be legal?
with (lock_guard(a); lock_guard(b))
{ ... }
I definitely have cases where I want more than one "guard". I'd prefer
to not need to create a scope for each one.
--
Matthew
Can someone explain to me what this actually offers over
{ std::lock_guard(whatever);
// do stuff
}
because I must be missing something, as right now, it just looks like
adding a new keyword for no reason whatsoever, and eschewing a perfectly
valid use of temporary blocks in the process. IOW, completely redundant and
counterproductive.
so i must've missed an undeniable benefit, right?
sorry, of course I meant to include a variable name in that declaration,
e.g. *a* or

*b*
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Barry Revzin
2016-07-11 18:31:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. B.
Can someone explain to me what this actually offers over
Post by D. B.
{ std::lock_guard(whatever);
// do stuff
}
because I must be missing something, as right now, it just looks like
adding a new keyword for no reason whatsoever, and eschewing a perfectly
valid use of temporary blocks in the process. IOW, completely redundant and
counterproductive.
so i must've missed an undeniable benefit, right?
sorry, of course I meant to include a variable name in that declaration,
e.g. *a* or *b*
Or even writing a function template that does the same thing as "with"
would?

template <class M, class F>
void with_lock(M& mtx, F f ) {
std::lock_guard _(mtx);
f();
}

with_lock(mtx, [&]{
// stuff locked here...
});
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Matthew Woehlke
2016-07-11 18:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by D. B.
Post by D. B.
Can someone explain to me what this actually offers over
{ std::lock_guard(whatever);
// do stuff
}
because I must be missing something, as right now, it just looks like
adding a new keyword for no reason whatsoever, and eschewing a perfectly
valid use of temporary blocks in the process. IOW, completely redundant and
counterproductive.
so i must've missed an undeniable benefit, right?
sorry, of course I meant to include a variable name in that declaration,
e.g. *a* or *b*
You don't need to name the variable, therefore:

- You are guaranteed to not accidentally shadow some other variable
without jumping through complicated hoops to do so.

- You are guaranteed that the variable cannot accidentally be accessed.

- It can interact better with compiler warnings about unused variables.

Also, by making it part of the language, you don't have to "add" it to
every project in which you want to use it.
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Zhihao Yuan
2016-07-11 19:11:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Matthew Woehlke
Post by Matthew Woehlke
Would this be legal?
with (lock_guard(a); lock_guard(b))
{ ... }
Very likely. But the whole suggestion depends
on whether people can live with one extra
nested scope.
--
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The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
___________________________________________________
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Matthew Woehlke
2016-07-11 19:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhihao Yuan
Post by Matthew Woehlke
Would this be legal?
with (lock_guard(a); lock_guard(b))
{ ... }
Very likely. But the whole suggestion depends
on whether people can live with one extra
nested scope.
Are you proposing `with` as a proper language extension, or as a macro
implemented with `if(expr; true)`? If the latter, is `if(expr; expr;
...; condition)` legal? (I guess it would be nice if it is, but I
haven't read the proposal or followed up on it to know offhand...)
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Zhihao Yuan
2016-07-11 20:17:14 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Matthew Woehlke
Post by Matthew Woehlke
Post by Zhihao Yuan
Post by Matthew Woehlke
with (lock_guard(a); lock_guard(b))
{ ... }
Very likely. But the whole suggestion depends
on whether people can live with one extra
nested scope.
Are you proposing `with` as a proper language extension, or as a macro
implemented with `if(expr; true)`? If the latter, is `if(expr; expr;
...; condition)` legal? (I guess it would be nice if it is, but I
haven't read the proposal or followed up on it to know offhand...)
I'm not proposal anything at this point, just looking for...
standpoints?
`if(expression-statement; true)` still discard;
`if(simple-declaration; true)` doesn't, which can be used in
place of `with (auto x = ...)`.
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j***@gmail.com
2017-10-09 22:11:25 UTC
Permalink
I was going to propose a similar feature as described in this thread,
fortunately, someone on slack mention this discussion thread, so I'll just
post this here:

https://github.com/janwilmans/janwilmans.github.io/blob/master/auto.md

I'm arguing for an unnamed variable also, but from a 'prevent using macros'
perspective. Also it might have applications in TMP to introduce unnamed
members into a class, by passing a reference from the unnamed variable's
constructor into an outer scope.

I'm going to add a concrete example usecase to the document, but I'd like
to get feedback on it so far...

Greetings,

Jan
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Arthur O'Dwyer
2017-10-10 22:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
I was going to propose a similar feature as described in this thread,
fortunately, someone on slack mention this discussion thread, so I'll just
https://github.com/janwilmans/janwilmans.github.io/blob/master/auto.md
[...]
I'm going to add a concrete example usecase to the document, but I'd like
to get feedback on it so far...
Seems plausible to me. Certainly omitting the variable name is more
"C++ish" than the perennial proposal to make the variable name `_` magic.
However, I see a very obvious pitfall in your choice of examples. Today we
have a major pitfall with people accidentally omitting the name of the
lock_guard variable. With your proposed syntax, *in codebases that use
scope guards with arbitrary lambdas*, we'll see people accidentally
omitting the make_guard keyword itself.

auto = make_guard([]{ end_of_scope_action(); });

auto = []{ end_of_scope_action(); };


The former is what you want your codebase to look like.
The latter is what your new hires will write, at least once a month, until
you train your linter to detect the problem automatically.
This is why it's so nice to use a macro to hide *all* the boilerplate,
instead of leaving any boilerplate in the C++ code.
This is why I prefer to write:
<http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~ajo/disseminate/auto.h>

Auto( end_of_scope_action(); );


Of course scope-guards are not the only use for anonymous variables. And
many smart C++ programmers will tell you loudly that scope-guards are a
Very Bad Pattern and shouldn't be used as justification for anything! But
if you're proposing that anonymous variables should be involved in the
best-practice way to declare scope-guards, I'd have to disagree: I see only
a source of bugs there.

–Arthur
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Jan Wilmans
2017-10-11 08:52:02 UTC
Permalink
The feedback is highly appreciated! I can see the syntax as proposed with
give room for a new class of errors, I had not considered that :)

Well, my main motivation for the introduction of an unnamed variable would
be to prevent the need to rely on non-standard macro extensions to provide
unique names for RAII objects in a local scope
Although the example speaks of a guard, its really just an example...

The logfuction is maybe a better example, although, in that case I would
rely on a __FILE__ macro, so its also not such a convincing example.

Greetings,

Jan
Post by Arthur O'Dwyer
Post by j***@gmail.com
I was going to propose a similar feature as described in this thread,
fortunately, someone on slack mention this discussion thread, so I'll just
https://github.com/janwilmans/janwilmans.github.io/blob/master/auto.md
[...]
I'm going to add a concrete example usecase to the document, but I'd like
to get feedback on it so far...
Seems plausible to me. Certainly omitting the variable name is more
"C++ish" than the perennial proposal to make the variable name `_` magic.
However, I see a very obvious pitfall in your choice of examples. Today we
have a major pitfall with people accidentally omitting the name of the
lock_guard variable. With your proposed syntax, *in codebases that use
scope guards with arbitrary lambdas*, we'll see people accidentally
omitting the make_guard keyword itself.
auto = make_guard([]{ end_of_scope_action(); });
auto = []{ end_of_scope_action(); };
The former is what you want your codebase to look like.
The latter is what your new hires will write, at least once a month, until
you train your linter to detect the problem automatically.
This is why it's so nice to use a macro to hide *all* the boilerplate,
instead of leaving any boilerplate in the C++ code.
<http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~ajo/disseminate/auto.h>
Auto( end_of_scope_action(); );
Of course scope-guards are not the only use for anonymous variables. And
many smart C++ programmers will tell you loudly that scope-guards are a
Very Bad Pattern and shouldn't be used as justification for anything! But
if you're proposing that anonymous variables should be involved in the
best-practice way to declare scope-guards, I'd have to disagree: I see only
a source of bugs there.
–Arthur
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j***@gmail.com
2017-10-12 20:04:49 UTC
Permalink
I have found multiple earlier discussions, references:
[2012] https://cplusplus.github.io/EWG/ewg-active.html#35

auto [] = make_guard([]{ end_of_scope_action(); });


Seems to be a better, less error-prone alternative syntax (an empty
structured binding).
I've
updated https://github.com/janwilmans/janwilmans.github.io/blob/master/auto.md
with the appropriate attributions and references
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Curious
2017-11-03 04:31:59 UTC
Permalink
This might be slightly late but as I see it there are two options here. I
will try and list both below.

The first option is what is currently accepted
auto [] = make_guard([]{ ... });

This has the advantage of being consistent with what structured bindings
do, they declare a hidden variable that cannot be referenced and used
within user code. In this case the structured bindings are not even being
decomposed into anything so this approach seems natural. A hidden variable
is declared behind the scenes and will be destroyed when the scope exists.

The second option that I have in mind is
auto {} = make_guard([]{ ... });

This is not consistent with structured bindings. However this slightly
matches with the list initialization as it stands currently in C++14, a {}
denotes a default construction for a class type, and can be used to
initialize an object. vec.push_back({}); is pretty cool. The {} syntax
seems to naturally scream unnamed object. Especially given how prevalent
JSON has become these days (although that is completely not directly
relevant to c++)

This however has the advantage of also working in the following context
auto [{}, another] = make_pair(...);

Where the {} denotes an anonymous unnamed reference. Which can be
consistent with the other case.

The consistent use of {} to denote an unused object seems like an
attractive idea. It however leaves some ambiguity with respect to what the
semantics of {} are. The best way to approach this would be to make {} an
unused anonymous identifier. With the type of {} being whatever preceeds
it, for example
auto&& {} = make_guard(...);

Here {} would be a rvalue reference with its lifetime being extended to
match the object returned by make_guard(...). Same with the following case
auto [{}, another] = make_pair(...);

Here {} is a reference type, with the referenced type being std::tuple_element<0,
std::decay_t<decltype(make_pair(...))>>

The current alternative however, does not seem to naturally work within
structured bindings themselves
auto [[], another] = make_pair(...);

The semantics of this are not very clear, the [] denotes a structured
binding. But what is the type of the binding within the binding? It does
not seem to have am auto type specifier before it, so will it be a
reference or what exactly? The {} case feels slightly more natural here.

Trying to solve multiple (related but not really) problems at once. Just
another thought about the matter!
Post by j***@gmail.com
[2012] https://cplusplus.github.io/EWG/ewg-active.html#35
auto [] = make_guard([]{ end_of_scope_action(); });
Seems to be a better, less error-prone alternative syntax (an empty
structured binding).
I've updated
https://github.com/janwilmans/janwilmans.github.io/blob/master/auto.md
with the appropriate attributions and references
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j***@gmail.com
2018-02-25 09:18:34 UTC
Permalink
I'm not sure why I missed this reply, I'm just seeing it now. This more
food for thought, thank you.
In the mean time I realized, that while this is a personal annoyance, it
will never be on the top 20 things that C++ needs the most.

It does not enable new expressiveness, at best in cleans up the syntax a
little, but if this introduces new ambiguities, as Arthur pointed out, I
think this will not be worth it.
I will update the page for future reference, but other than that, I'm not
pursuing this any further.
Post by Curious
This might be slightly late but as I see it there are two options here. I
will try and list both below.
The first option is what is currently accepted
auto [] = make_guard([]{ ... });
This has the advantage of being consistent with what structured bindings
do, they declare a hidden variable that cannot be referenced and used
within user code. In this case the structured bindings are not even being
decomposed into anything so this approach seems natural. A hidden variable
is declared behind the scenes and will be destroyed when the scope exists.
The second option that I have in mind is
auto {} = make_guard([]{ ... });
This is not consistent with structured bindings. However this slightly
matches with the list initialization as it stands currently in C++14, a {}
denotes a default construction for a class type, and can be used to
initialize an object. vec.push_back({}); is pretty cool. The {} syntax
seems to naturally scream unnamed object. Especially given how prevalent
JSON has become these days (although that is completely not directly
relevant to c++)
This however has the advantage of also working in the following context
auto [{}, another] = make_pair(...);
Where the {} denotes an anonymous unnamed reference. Which can be
consistent with the other case.
The consistent use of {} to denote an unused object seems like an
attractive idea. It however leaves some ambiguity with respect to what the
semantics of {} are. The best way to approach this would be to make {}
an unused anonymous identifier. With the type of {} being whatever
preceeds it, for example
auto&& {} = make_guard(...);
Here {} would be a rvalue reference with its lifetime being extended to
match the object returned by make_guard(...). Same with the following case
auto [{}, another] = make_pair(...);
Here {} is a reference type, with the referenced type being std::tuple_element<0,
std::decay_t<decltype(make_pair(...))>>
The current alternative however, does not seem to naturally work within
structured bindings themselves
auto [[], another] = make_pair(...);
The semantics of this are not very clear, the [] denotes a structured
binding. But what is the type of the binding within the binding? It does
not seem to have am auto type specifier before it, so will it be a
reference or what exactly? The {} case feels slightly more natural here.
Trying to solve multiple (related but not really) problems at once. Just
another thought about the matter!
Post by j***@gmail.com
[2012] https://cplusplus.github.io/EWG/ewg-active.html#35
auto [] = make_guard([]{ end_of_scope_action(); });
Seems to be a better, less error-prone alternative syntax (an empty
structured binding).
I've updated
https://github.com/janwilmans/janwilmans.github.io/blob/master/auto.md
with the appropriate attributions and references
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-10 21:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nevin Liber
Post by j***@unbuggy.com
_ is already used as a placeholder in the MPL. It's also sometimes used
as a local macro name. You have a neat idea, but _ seems pretty well
spoken for. It's also unclear that this proposal would solve a real pain
point, or whether it's convenience would be outweighed by (arguably) less
readable code.
I would find the feature more useful if it offered slightly less
functionality; in particular, I'd like a guarantee that no operation at all
can be performed on such variables except the automatic destruction at end
of scope.
This is, of course the problem. You are looking to change functionality
which has been there since C90 (or even longer). This would break working
code and introduce an incompatibility with C. You could possibly mitigate
the latter with a complicated rule (for instance, it only has the desired
semantics for types with non-trivial destructors), but if you are stealing
a name, you cannot help but break the former.
A far as I can see, both my proposal at the top, as well as Tony suggestion
of disallowing being able to refer
to _ when multiple exist declarations exist in the same scope, are
backwards compatible with what's allowed
today right? Counter example?

Also, you're correct about the compiler not giving non-used variable
warnings for objects with non-trivial destructors.
I wonder whether the application of that is beneficial as such general rule
or not. Non-trivial destructor are quite
an implicit use of variable.

__ is different than _ in that it is reserved for implementations, so
Post by Nevin Liber
theoretically the breakage wouldn't be as bad.
IMO, finding a way to express this w/o using an identifier is a better
approach (although then comes the debate about the feature being worth the
cost of new syntax).
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-10 22:18:26 UTC
Permalink
Then, I'm just *really* surprised noticing this after this many years that
a simple "unused" std::string doesn't give a warning because of that
non-trivial destructor rule.

For me this is not a feature, it's sad!

I imagine a newcomer asking an instructor: "hey why int i gives a unused
warning but string s not?"
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Nevin Liber
Post by j***@unbuggy.com
_ is already used as a placeholder in the MPL. It's also sometimes used
as a local macro name. You have a neat idea, but _ seems pretty well
spoken for. It's also unclear that this proposal would solve a real pain
point, or whether it's convenience would be outweighed by (arguably) less
readable code.
I would find the feature more useful if it offered slightly less
functionality; in particular, I'd like a guarantee that no operation at all
can be performed on such variables except the automatic destruction at end
of scope.
This is, of course the problem. You are looking to change functionality
which has been there since C90 (or even longer). This would break working
code and introduce an incompatibility with C. You could possibly mitigate
the latter with a complicated rule (for instance, it only has the desired
semantics for types with non-trivial destructors), but if you are stealing
a name, you cannot help but break the former.
A far as I can see, both my proposal at the top, as well as Tony
suggestion of disallowing being able to refer
to _ when multiple exist declarations exist in the same scope, are
backwards compatible with what's allowed
today right? Counter example?
Also, you're correct about the compiler not giving non-used variable
warnings for objects with non-trivial destructors.
I wonder whether the application of that is beneficial as such general
rule or not. Non-trivial destructor are quite
an implicit use of variable.
__ is different than _ in that it is reserved for implementations, so
Post by Nevin Liber
theoretically the breakage wouldn't be as bad.
IMO, finding a way to express this w/o using an identifier is a better
approach (although then comes the debate about the feature being worth the
cost of new syntax).
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Thiago Macieira
2016-07-11 06:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Francisco Lopes
I imagine a newcomer asking an instructor: "hey why int i gives a unused
warning but string s not?"
Answer: "because int is trivial, std::string isn't"
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Nicol Bolas
2016-07-10 23:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Wait a minute. Let's think about what we just added to C++: structured
binding:

auto [a, b] = ...;

Now, the way structured binding works is that it takes the expression and
stores it in a hidden variable. It then gets references to the members,
either directly from public members or with a particular interface. That's
how the concept is semantically defined:

auto &&temp = make_pair(3, 4.5f);
auto &a = temp.first;
auto &b = temp.second;

So... what happens if we do this:

auto [] = ...;

If we allowed this to work for any type, then what we'd be saying is that
the expression would be stored in... a *hidden variable*. But since the
structured binding list is empty, no references would be extracted from it.
So all we'd have is what we want: an unnamed, unnamable variable that will
be destroyed when scope ends.

So we'd have code like this:

auto[] = scope_exit(...);

I admit that this isn't great syntax. It looks too much like structured
binding. But I think it's better than trying to define that a certain
identifier name would have a new meaning.
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-10 23:59:33 UTC
Permalink
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For structured
binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed? I think this is one of the
more compelling
usecases, structured binding feels a bit lacking without that mechanism.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Wait a minute. Let's think about what we just added to C++: structured
auto [a, b] = ...;
Now, the way structured binding works is that it takes the expression and
stores it in a hidden variable. It then gets references to the members,
either directly from public members or with a particular interface. That's
auto &&temp = make_pair(3, 4.5f);
auto &a = temp.first;
auto &b = temp.second;
auto [] = ...;
If we allowed this to work for any type, then what we'd be saying is that
the expression would be stored in... a *hidden variable*. But since the
structured binding list is empty, no references would be extracted from it.
So all we'd have is what we want: an unnamed, unnamable variable that will
be destroyed when scope ends.
auto[] = scope_exit(...);
I admit that this isn't great syntax. It looks too much like structured
binding. But I think it's better than trying to define that a certain
identifier name would have a new meaning.
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 00:02:48 UTC
Permalink
I mean, not all bindings.
Post by Francisco Lopes
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For structured
binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed? I think this is one of the
more compelling
usecases, structured binding feels a bit lacking without that mechanism.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Wait a minute. Let's think about what we just added to C++: structured
auto [a, b] = ...;
Now, the way structured binding works is that it takes the expression and
stores it in a hidden variable. It then gets references to the members,
either directly from public members or with a particular interface. That's
auto &&temp = make_pair(3, 4.5f);
auto &a = temp.first;
auto &b = temp.second;
auto [] = ...;
If we allowed this to work for any type, then what we'd be saying is that
the expression would be stored in... a *hidden variable*. But since the
structured binding list is empty, no references would be extracted from it.
So all we'd have is what we want: an unnamed, unnamable variable that will
be destroyed when scope ends.
auto[] = scope_exit(...);
I admit that this isn't great syntax. It looks too much like structured
binding. But I think it's better than trying to define that a certain
identifier name would have a new meaning.
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Nicol Bolas
2016-07-11 01:11:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Francisco Lopes
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For structured
binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed?
Remember the goal: you want an *object* to be unnamed, because you want to
use its construction and destruction only. The variables created by
structured binding are not objects; they're *references*. Their destructors
are irrelevant, so making them unnamed is equally irrelevant to this
particular goal.

Don't try to solve every problem at once.
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 01:53:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For structured
binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed?
Remember the goal: you want an *object* to be unnamed, because you want
to use its construction and destruction only. The variables created by
structured binding are not objects; they're *references*. Their
destructors are irrelevant, so making them unnamed is equally irrelevant to
this particular goal.
That may look like the *original* goal in the previous thread, but to tell
the truth it's not my goal. The rationale
here is for unnamed variables. It's just about to cover the intention of
not providing names for things
that doesn't need them, as frequently happen (and will happen) in the cases
presented.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Don't try to solve every problem at once.
Why not? It's a simple solution that covers the relevant problem: having a
placeholder. It ends up
solving all in an understandable manner, in a uniform way. I ask why solve
it in a case by case form?
or solving one special case while leaving the others for the future or
plain unsolved, when in truth,
they all refer to the same core subject.
--
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 02:08:38 UTC
Permalink
Besides _ or __ I'm thinking of other possibilities...

@: I know of its presence solely in mangled names but I suspect it won't
be an issue.

I dunno, maybe the range of special characters may be of some use here too.
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For structured
binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed?
Remember the goal: you want an *object* to be unnamed, because you want
to use its construction and destruction only. The variables created by
structured binding are not objects; they're *references*. Their
destructors are irrelevant, so making them unnamed is equally irrelevant to
this particular goal.
That may look like the *original* goal in the previous thread, but to
tell the truth it's not my goal. The rationale
here is for unnamed variables. It's just about to cover the intention of
not providing names for things
that doesn't need them, as frequently happen (and will happen) in the
cases presented.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Don't try to solve every problem at once.
Why not? It's a simple solution that covers the relevant problem: having a
placeholder. It ends up
solving all in an understandable manner, in a uniform way. I ask why solve
it in a case by case form?
or solving one special case while leaving the others for the future or
plain unsolved, when in truth,
they all refer to the same core subject.
--
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 02:12:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Francisco Lopes
Besides _ or __ I'm thinking of other possibilities...
@: I know of its presence solely in mangled names but I suspect it won't
be an issue.
I dunno, maybe the range of special characters may be of some use here too.
If adopting such alternative characters, it would be placeholder only,
without referentiability.
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For
structured binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed?
Remember the goal: you want an *object* to be unnamed, because you want
to use its construction and destruction only. The variables created by
structured binding are not objects; they're *references*. Their
destructors are irrelevant, so making them unnamed is equally irrelevant to
this particular goal.
That may look like the *original* goal in the previous thread, but to
tell the truth it's not my goal. The rationale
here is for unnamed variables. It's just about to cover the intention of
not providing names for things
that doesn't need them, as frequently happen (and will happen) in the
cases presented.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Don't try to solve every problem at once.
Why not? It's a simple solution that covers the relevant problem: having
a placeholder. It ends up
solving all in an understandable manner, in a uniform way. I ask why
solve it in a case by case form?
or solving one special case while leaving the others for the future or
plain unsolved, when in truth,
they all refer to the same core subject.
--
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 02:23:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Besides _ or __ I'm thinking of other possibilities...
@: I know of its presence solely in mangled names but I suspect it won't
be an issue.
I dunno, maybe the range of special characters may be of some use here too.
If adopting such alternative characters, it would be placeholder only,
without referentiability.
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For
structured binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed?
Remember the goal: you want an *object* to be unnamed, because you
want to use its construction and destruction only. The variables created by
structured binding are not objects; they're *references*. Their
destructors are irrelevant, so making them unnamed is equally irrelevant to
this particular goal.
That may look like the *original* goal in the previous thread, but to
tell the truth it's not my goal. The rationale
here is for unnamed variables. It's just about to cover the intention of
not providing names for things
that doesn't need them, as frequently happen (and will happen) in the
cases presented.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Don't try to solve every problem at once.
Why not? It's a simple solution that covers the relevant problem: having
a placeholder. It ends up
solving all in an understandable manner, in a uniform way. I ask why
solve it in a case by case form?
or solving one special case while leaving the others for the future or
plain unsolved, when in truth,
they all refer to the same core subject.
--
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Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
2016-07-11 03:07:04 UTC
Permalink
I've been following this with great interest but I disagree with using _,
__, @, etc.

If the goal of a future proposal is having unnamed variables IMHO they
should not use any character or sequence of characters to be... well ...
named.

The examples where a member function needs to be called on a unnamed
variable is just something that could be done by another function which the
return is assigned to a unnamed variable.
Or other cases, another RAII class could wrap this and calling
whatever member functions on its constructor/destructor.

Nicol's suggestion:
auto[] = foo();
It seems to me a better direction.

For the cases where named and unnamed variables are needed, may we just
skip declaring a name?
auto [a,,c] = foo();
Or would that be too error prone?

A few other thoughts:
- Should unnamed variables should also be allowed whenever a structured
binding is possible?
I'm thinking unnamed statics/globals here.

- It was also mentioned that structured binding creates references... but
which kind of references are they?
const& and && are known to extend the lifetime of the assigned object
until the end of the scope.

- Regarding structured binding type deduction and conversions: there was
some discussion around allowing specifying the types of individual
variables.
How that would apply to unnamed variables?
Wrap conversions in other functions or classes (as suggested above for
when member function calls are needed)?
Or just don't for now...
If structured binding ever gets this ability in the future, then types
for unnamed variables could be specified: auto[int a, int, int b] = foo();

- Is there a use case for unnamed class data members?
Maybe for some crazy future use of parameter pack expansion?
Then auto[] would not work.

- I'm trying to find similarities with other situations where an entity can
be unnamed as a case for consistency ...
anonymous unions/structs or namespaces, type of a lambda...
Well, maybe those are different beasts.


On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 9:23 PM, Francisco Lopes <
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Besides _ or __ I'm thinking of other possibilities...
@: I know of its presence solely in mangled names but I suspect it
won't be an issue.
I dunno, maybe the range of special characters may be of some use here too.
If adopting such alternative characters, it would be placeholder only,
without referentiability.
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For
structured binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed?
Remember the goal: you want an *object* to be unnamed, because you
want to use its construction and destruction only. The variables created by
structured binding are not objects; they're *references*. Their
destructors are irrelevant, so making them unnamed is equally irrelevant to
this particular goal.
That may look like the *original* goal in the previous thread, but to
tell the truth it's not my goal. The rationale
here is for unnamed variables. It's just about to cover the intention
of not providing names for things
that doesn't need them, as frequently happen (and will happen) in the
cases presented.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Don't try to solve every problem at once.
having a placeholder. It ends up
solving all in an understandable manner, in a uniform way. I ask why
solve it in a case by case form?
or solving one special case while leaving the others for the future or
plain unsolved, when in truth,
they all refer to the same core subject.
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Nicol Bolas
2016-07-11 03:38:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
I've been following this with great interest but I disagree with using _,
If the goal of a future proposal is having unnamed variables IMHO they
should not use any character or sequence of characters to be... well ...
named.
@ is not even in the C++ basic character set. So it cannot be a valid
identifier.

That being said, I dislike using @ for 2 reasons:

1: It requires adding `@` to the basic character set.
2: After having gone through the effort to add a character to the basic
character set, we would then use up all of the possible syntactic potential
of the character, just to get unnamed identifiers. Better to preserve the
possibilities for `@` for something more worthwhile.
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 03:45:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ricardo, maybe the topic name is improper. First, I'm advocating that if
any special character
is to be used besides _ and __, which are already usable as indentifiers,
then it would
not be possible to explicitly call member functions on them, they would
simpler serve the purpose
of a placeholder name at declaration.

I like this idea of a placeholder variable name better than the current
propositions. It's not the
same as truly anonymous for which you don't even give it a name at all, but
it's better IMO.
I see no reason for tackling it solely by extending syntax of structure
binding and missing the
oportunity for all the possible remaining usecases where the presence of a
placeholder name would
solve it. A placeholder doesn't even need to tweak structure binding
specification at all, it would be
solved as a consequence of a more general solution about variable naming.

Em segunda-feira, 11 de julho de 2016 00:07:07 UTC-3, Ricardo Andrade
Post by Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
I've been following this with great interest but I disagree with using _,
If the goal of a future proposal is having unnamed variables IMHO they
should not use any character or sequence of characters to be... well ...
named.
The examples where a member function needs to be called on a unnamed
variable is just something that could be done by another function which the
return is assigned to a unnamed variable.
Or other cases, another RAII class could wrap this and calling
whatever member functions on its constructor/destructor.
auto[] = foo();
It seems to me a better direction.
For the cases where named and unnamed variables are needed, may we just
skip declaring a name?
auto [a,,c] = foo();
Or would that be too error prone?
- Should unnamed variables should also be allowed whenever a structured
binding is possible?
I'm thinking unnamed statics/globals here.
- It was also mentioned that structured binding creates references... but
which kind of references are they?
const& and && are known to extend the lifetime of the assigned object
until the end of the scope.
- Regarding structured binding type deduction and conversions: there was
some discussion around allowing specifying the types of individual
variables.
How that would apply to unnamed variables?
Wrap conversions in other functions or classes (as suggested above for
when member function calls are needed)?
Or just don't for now...
If structured binding ever gets this ability in the future, then types
for unnamed variables could be specified: auto[int a, int, int b] = foo();
- Is there a use case for unnamed class data members?
Maybe for some crazy future use of parameter pack expansion?
Then auto[] would not work.
- I'm trying to find similarities with other situations where an entity
can be unnamed as a case for consistency ...
anonymous unions/structs or namespaces, type of a lambda...
Well, maybe those are different beasts.
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 9:23 PM, Francisco Lopes <
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Besides _ or __ I'm thinking of other possibilities...
@: I know of its presence solely in mangled names but I suspect it
won't be an issue.
I dunno, maybe the range of special characters may be of some use here too.
If adopting such alternative characters, it would be placeholder only,
without referentiability.
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For
structured binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed?
Remember the goal: you want an *object* to be unnamed, because you
want to use its construction and destruction only. The variables created by
structured binding are not objects; they're *references*. Their
destructors are irrelevant, so making them unnamed is equally irrelevant to
this particular goal.
That may look like the *original* goal in the previous thread, but to
tell the truth it's not my goal. The rationale
here is for unnamed variables. It's just about to cover the intention
of not providing names for things
that doesn't need them, as frequently happen (and will happen) in the
cases presented.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Don't try to solve every problem at once.
having a placeholder. It ends up
solving all in an understandable manner, in a uniform way. I ask why
solve it in a case by case form?
or solving one special case while leaving the others for the future or
plain unsolved, when in truth,
they all refer to the same core subject.
--
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.
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Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
2016-07-11 04:19:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 10:45 PM, Francisco Lopes <
Post by Francisco Lopes
Hi Ricardo, maybe the topic name is improper. First, I'm advocating that
if any special character
is to be used besides _ and __, which are already usable as indentifiers,
then it would
not be possible to explicitly call member functions on them, they would
simpler serve the purpose
of a placeholder name at declaration.
Now I think I understand the reach of your suggestion. Any variable,
anywhere, could be unnamed.
As long as it becomes inaccessible after being "declared" I can see some
benefit.
Post by Francisco Lopes
I like this idea of a placeholder variable name better than the current
propositions. It's not the
same as truly anonymous for which you don't even give it a name at all,
but it's better IMO.
I can also see some problems.
- I'm not quite sure if I want unnamed variables everywhere.
At the local scope, it seems pretty straightforward. Global, namespace,
static and class scopes I'm not so sure.
In the other hand, I'm also against artificial constraints to prevent
such uses if this suggestion ever becomes a proposal.
- I was about to say that finding such placeholder "name" sounded
difficult. But it seems we got a candidate "register".
Post by Francisco Lopes
I see no reason for tackling it solely by extending syntax of structure
binding and missing the
oportunity for all the possible remaining usecases where the presence of a
placeholder name would
solve it. A placeholder doesn't even need to tweak structure binding
specification at all, it would be
solved as a consequence of a more general solution about variable naming.
Sounds reasonable. :)
Post by Francisco Lopes
Em segunda-feira, 11 de julho de 2016 00:07:07 UTC-3, Ricardo Andrade
Post by Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
I've been following this with great interest but I disagree with using _,
If the goal of a future proposal is having unnamed variables IMHO they
should not use any character or sequence of characters to be... well ...
named.
The examples where a member function needs to be called on a unnamed
variable is just something that could be done by another function which the
return is assigned to a unnamed variable.
Or other cases, another RAII class could wrap this and calling
whatever member functions on its constructor/destructor.
auto[] = foo();
It seems to me a better direction.
For the cases where named and unnamed variables are needed, may we just
skip declaring a name?
auto [a,,c] = foo();
Or would that be too error prone?
- Should unnamed variables should also be allowed whenever a structured
binding is possible?
I'm thinking unnamed statics/globals here.
- It was also mentioned that structured binding creates references... but
which kind of references are they?
const& and && are known to extend the lifetime of the assigned object
until the end of the scope.
- Regarding structured binding type deduction and conversions: there was
some discussion around allowing specifying the types of individual
variables.
How that would apply to unnamed variables?
Wrap conversions in other functions or classes (as suggested above for
when member function calls are needed)?
Or just don't for now...
If structured binding ever gets this ability in the future, then types
for unnamed variables could be specified: auto[int a, int, int b] = foo();
- Is there a use case for unnamed class data members?
Maybe for some crazy future use of parameter pack expansion?
Then auto[] would not work.
- I'm trying to find similarities with other situations where an entity
can be unnamed as a case for consistency ...
anonymous unions/structs or namespaces, type of a lambda...
Well, maybe those are different beasts.
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 9:23 PM, Francisco Lopes <
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Besides _ or __ I'm thinking of other possibilities...
@: I know of its presence solely in mangled names but I suspect it
won't be an issue.
I dunno, maybe the range of special characters may be of some use here too.
If adopting such alternative characters, it would be placeholder only,
without referentiability.
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For
structured binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed?
Remember the goal: you want an *object* to be unnamed, because you
want to use its construction and destruction only. The variables created by
structured binding are not objects; they're *references*. Their
destructors are irrelevant, so making them unnamed is equally irrelevant to
this particular goal.
That may look like the *original* goal in the previous thread, but
to tell the truth it's not my goal. The rationale
here is for unnamed variables. It's just about to cover the intention
of not providing names for things
that doesn't need them, as frequently happen (and will happen) in the
cases presented.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Don't try to solve every problem at once.
having a placeholder. It ends up
solving all in an understandable manner, in a uniform way. I ask why
solve it in a case by case form?
or solving one special case while leaving the others for the future
or plain unsolved, when in truth,
they all refer to the same core subject.
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Thiago Macieira
2016-07-11 06:45:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Francisco Lopes
@: I know of its presence solely in mangled names but I suspect it won't
be an issue.
It's not part of the basic character set.
--
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Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center
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Nicol Bolas
2016-07-11 03:47:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For structured
binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed?
Remember the goal: you want an *object* to be unnamed, because you want
to use its construction and destruction only. The variables created by
structured binding are not objects; they're *references*. Their
destructors are irrelevant, so making them unnamed is equally irrelevant to
this particular goal.
That may look like the *original* goal in the previous thread, but to
tell the truth it's not my goal. The rationale
here is for unnamed variables. It's just about to cover the intention of
not providing names for things
that doesn't need them, as frequently happen (and will happen) in the
cases presented.
Don't try to solve every problem at once.
Why not? It's a simple solution that covers the relevant problem: having a
placeholder. It ends up
solving all in an understandable manner, in a uniform way.
But it is not a "simple solution". Indeed, I would go so far as to say that
any placeholder which is currently a valid identifier is not a solution at
all.

Breaking people's perfectly valid code should not be considered a solution
to a problem. Not without *really good* reason. And let's face facts:
unnamed variables are not *that* important.

Also, last time we tried to get something "uniform", we got Uniform
Initialization. Which very much is not.

I ask why solve it in a case by case form?
Because it works. Not only does it work, it makes sense. That's one of the
nice things about `auto[]`: based solely on the rules of structured
binding, it does exactly what you want.

Indeed, as I think about it, if we ever wanted structured binding to be
able to not capture all of the elements, we wouldn't *want* it to use
placeholders. We would probably want `auto [x]` to bind to the first value
of any tuple-like type. If that type has 30 variables in it, I don't care;
I just want the first one. I shouldn't have to do `auto [x, @, @, @]` or
even `auto [x, ...]` or whatever. I said that I wanted the first member, so
give it to me.

Given that, `auto []` would bind to none of the values. Therefore, it would
either be a compile error or it would work on anything, providing a hidden
object that would be destroyed at the end of scope.

So really, I don't see this as a "case-by-case form". It's really the right
way to go for *both* problems ;)
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Zhihao Yuan
2016-07-11 03:53:31 UTC
Permalink
Indeed, I would go so far as to say that any placeholder which is currently
a valid identifier is not a solution at all.
How about

register lock_guard(lk);

Not a currently valid identifier, correct English :)
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The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
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Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
2016-07-11 03:59:07 UTC
Permalink
If I'm following Francisco's line of thought that would not work for:
auto [a, register, c] = foo();

Or for:
[a, register = b, c]() { ... }

The suggestion is for something that can be used during the variable
declaration which make it valid but inaccessible since it does not have a
name.
Post by Tony V E
Indeed, I would go so far as to say that any placeholder which is
currently
a valid identifier is not a solution at all.
How about
register lock_guard(lk);
Not a currently valid identifier, correct English :)
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The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
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Nicol Bolas
2016-07-11 04:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
auto [a, register, c] = foo();
Why wouldn't that work? `register` is a valid keyword but currently has no
meaning. Therefore, its usage in structured binding has no meaning.

Which means we can *make* it work however we want.
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Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
2016-07-11 04:12:40 UTC
Permalink
Well, if that's the case, the idea is not half bad. :)
"register"ing a variable sounds even reasonable.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
auto [a, register, c] = foo();
Why wouldn't that work? `register` is a valid keyword but currently has no
meaning. Therefore, its usage in structured binding has no meaning.
Which means we can *make* it work however we want.
Post by Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
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Zhihao Yuan
2016-07-11 04:20:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
Post by Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
auto [a, register, c] = foo();
I want to solve the problem of RAII, not structured
binding. Feel free to extend structured binding,
but I don't find making them work in the same
way very fascinating.
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The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
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Tony V E
2016-07-11 04:28:22 UTC
Permalink
We could solve RAII with register, and leave it at that. 

But I solution for structured binding would also be nice. 
And if/when we get pattern matching, we will really need something short that means 'match any'. auto does that for types, but we need something for values. 

We could solve each of these independently, but if #3 also solves #2 and #1 *coherently*, then I'd rather have a single solution.

If a single solution is incoherent, then we shouldn't push it. But we need to explore it. 

I'm not sure solving any one problem is worth it on its own, but if you can solve all three (and more), then you have bang for the buck. 
 

Sent from my BlackBerry portable Babbage Device
  Original Message  
From: Zhihao Yuan
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 12:20 AM
To: std-***@isocpp.org
Reply To: std-***@isocpp.org
Subject: Re: [std-proposals] Re: Anonymous variables (moved "deferred destruction" topic)

On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
Post by Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade
auto [a, register, c] = foo();
I want to solve the problem of RAII, not structured
binding. Feel free to extend structured binding,
but I don't find making them work in the same
way very fascinating.
--
Zhihao Yuan, ID lichray
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
___________________________________________________
4BSD -- http://blog.miator.net/
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Zhihao Yuan
2016-07-11 04:40:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony V E
We could solve each of these independently, but if #3 also solves #2 and #1 *coherently*, then I'd rather have a single solution.
If a single solution is incoherent, then we shouldn't push it. But we need to explore it.
Let's say we use the keyword `register` as the placeholder
for the solution this thread is looking for, RAII will be written
as

auto register = lock_guard(lk);

Lengthy. And structured binding will be

auto [a, register] = ...;

I want to "ignore", not *not* to ignore.

This way damages both use cases.
Post by Tony V E
I'm not sure solving any one problem is worth it on its own, but if you can solve all three (and more), then you have bang for the buck.
Instead, if we have

register lock_guard(lk);

and

auto [a, std::ignore] = expr;

Both intentions seem to be expressed very well.

The point I'm making here is that, for the RAII case,
what you want is to emphasis the existence of the
unnamed variable, while in structured binding/pattern
matching, what you want is to eliminate the presence
of the unnamed variable. They are not necessarily
to be using the same solution.
--
Zhihao Yuan, ID lichray
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
___________________________________________________
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 04:55:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Zhihao. Of course it doesn't necessarily need to be any way.
I get your point, but the solutions you give to cover that point are
not much pretty.
Post by Tony V E
Post by Tony V E
We could solve each of these independently, but if #3 also solves #2 and
#1 *coherently*, then I'd rather have a single solution.
Post by Tony V E
If a single solution is incoherent, then we shouldn't push it. But we
need to explore it.
Let's say we use the keyword `register` as the placeholder
for the solution this thread is looking for, RAII will be written
as
auto register = lock_guard(lk);
Lengthy.
register is not meaningful, it doesn't bring the sense of a placeholder, I
think this is bad.
Post by Tony V E
And structured binding will be
auto [a, register] = ...;
I want to "ignore", not *not* to ignore.
Indeed, me too! Same for the previous.

This way damages both use cases.
Post by Tony V E
Post by Tony V E
I'm not sure solving any one problem is worth it on its own, but if you
can solve all three (and more), then you have bang for the buck.
Instead, if we have
register lock_guard(lk);
OK so, register is still not meaningful about anything as a name, and what
is it doing
at the variable type? I have to bend my mind to understand that's an
anonymous declaration
of a lock_guard.

and
Post by Tony V E
auto [a, std::ignore] = expr;
Have you checked in a previous Nicol email how structure binding should
expand behind
the scenes. Having a placeholder variable name fits well with that, now
std::ignore doesn't,
I can't imagine what the implementation of that should be like. I agree the
intention is
present though, in this case.

Both intentions seem to be expressed very well.
Post by Tony V E
The point I'm making here is that, for the RAII case,
what you want is to emphasis the existence of the
unnamed variable, while in structured binding/pattern
matching, what you want is to eliminate the presence
of the unnamed variable. They are not necessarily
to be using the same solution.
--
Post by Tony V E
Zhihao Yuan, ID lichray
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
___________________________________________________
4BSD -- http://blog.miator.net/
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Zhihao Yuan
2016-07-11 05:08:33 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 11:55 PM, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Zhihao Yuan
Instead, if we have
register lock_guard(lk);
OK so, register is still not meaningful about anything as a name, and what
is it doing
at the variable type? I have to bend my mind to understand that's an
anonymous declaration
of a lock_guard.
It's even easier to understand than "unnamed variable".
Given

lock_guard(lk);

as an expression statement -- a _discarded-value
expression_ alone followed by a semicolon,

register lock_guard(lk);

statement will be a statement that keep the value to-be-
discarded. Or you can say, "registered".
--
Zhihao Yuan, ID lichray
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
___________________________________________________
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 05:13:03 UTC
Permalink
Hah, ok, now I get it. In that sense it seems fine.
Post by Zhihao Yuan
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 11:55 PM, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Zhihao Yuan
Instead, if we have
register lock_guard(lk);
OK so, register is still not meaningful about anything as a name, and
what
Post by Francisco Lopes
is it doing
at the variable type? I have to bend my mind to understand that's an
anonymous declaration
of a lock_guard.
It's even easier to understand than "unnamed variable".
Given
lock_guard(lk);
as an expression statement -- a _discarded-value
expression_ alone followed by a semicolon,
register lock_guard(lk);
statement will be a statement that keep the value to-be-
discarded. Or you can say, "registered".
--
Zhihao Yuan, ID lichray
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
___________________________________________________
4BSD -- http://blog.miator.net/
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 05:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Now I agree with being an acceptable solution for the RAII problem, it
covers both
scope_exit and guards. Sadly it doesn't touch binding as you already said.

The problem is that the time we get a mechanist to let variables unnamed
(like
with got for types like Tony said), and I hope so this happens. Then we
will end
up with two valid solutions for the RAII problem I guess. It would not
happen only
if placeholders are put at work in specific places solely, which personally
I'd not
like.

Em segunda-feira, 11 de julho de 2016 02:13:03 UTC-3, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Hah, ok, now I get it. In that sense it seems fine.
Post by Zhihao Yuan
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 11:55 PM, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Zhihao Yuan
Instead, if we have
register lock_guard(lk);
OK so, register is still not meaningful about anything as a name, and
what
Post by Francisco Lopes
is it doing
at the variable type? I have to bend my mind to understand that's an
anonymous declaration
of a lock_guard.
It's even easier to understand than "unnamed variable".
Given
lock_guard(lk);
as an expression statement -- a _discarded-value
expression_ alone followed by a semicolon,
register lock_guard(lk);
statement will be a statement that keep the value to-be-
discarded. Or you can say, "registered".
--
Zhihao Yuan, ID lichray
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
___________________________________________________
4BSD -- http://blog.miator.net/
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Zhihao Yuan
2016-07-11 06:02:22 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 12:22 AM, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
The problem is that the time we get a mechanist to let variables unnamed
(like
with got for types like Tony said), and I hope so this happens. Then we will
end
up with two valid solutions for the RAII problem I guess. It would not
happen only
if placeholders are put at work in specific places solely, which personally
I'd not
like.
Structured binding is a prototype for pattern matching,
IMHO it's acceptable for having some features not
usable outside [], as acceptable as having features
usable from outside but not inside, which is the status
quo.

To this specific "ignore" functionality, restricting it
within structured binding gives us a long list of
placeholder candidates:

.. // two dots
<>
- // minus, dash
~
:)

, while making it usable in other places is troublesome
in some cases:

int <placeholder> = get_raii_file_descriptor();

That RAII fd is implicitly convertible to int, so we
destroy the object and return an int? Or we restrict
the type to be `auto`? Oh wait, actually I need
`auto&&`! Welcome home, that is exactly how
structured binding handles the "capturing object",
and by doing this we subset the language in a
much larger scope...
--
Zhihao Yuan, ID lichray
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
___________________________________________________
4BSD -- http://blog.miator.net/
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Tony V E
2016-07-11 11:19:58 UTC
Permalink
Hmmm
Maybe we should reserve _ as unusable in structured binding for now?

Sent from my BlackBerry portable Babbage Device
  Original Message  
From: Zhihao Yuan
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 2:02 AM
To: std-***@isocpp.org
Reply To: std-***@isocpp.org
Subject: Re: [std-proposals] Re: Anonymous variables (moved "deferred destruction" topic)

On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 12:22 AM, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
The problem is that the time we get a mechanist to let variables unnamed
(like
with got for types like Tony said), and I hope so this happens. Then we will
end
up with two valid solutions for the RAII problem I guess. It would not
happen only
if placeholders are put at work in specific places solely, which personally
I'd not
like.
Structured binding is a prototype for pattern matching,
IMHO it's acceptable for having some features not
usable outside [], as acceptable as having features
usable from outside but not inside, which is the status
quo.

To this specific "ignore" functionality, restricting it
within structured binding gives us a long list of
placeholder candidates:

.. // two dots
<>
- // minus, dash
~
:)

, while making it usable in other places is troublesome
in some cases:

int <placeholder> = get_raii_file_descriptor();

That RAII fd is implicitly convertible to int, so we
destroy the object and return an int? Or we restrict
the type to be `auto`? Oh wait, actually I need
`auto&&`! Welcome home, that is exactly how
structured binding handles the "capturing object",
and by doing this we subset the language in a
much larger scope...
--
Zhihao Yuan, ID lichray
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
___________________________________________________
4BSD -- http://blog.miator.net/
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 14:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony V E
Hmmm
Maybe we should reserve _ as unusable in structured binding for now?
I consider it a wise move.

Sent from my BlackBerry portable Babbage Device
Post by Tony V E
Original Message
From: Zhihao Yuan
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 2:02 AM
Subject: Re: [std-proposals] Re: Anonymous variables (moved "deferred destruction" topic)
On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 12:22 AM, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
The problem is that the time we get a mechanist to let variables unnamed
(like
with got for types like Tony said), and I hope so this happens. Then we
will
Post by Francisco Lopes
end
up with two valid solutions for the RAII problem I guess. It would not
happen only
if placeholders are put at work in specific places solely, which
personally
Post by Francisco Lopes
I'd not
like.
Structured binding is a prototype for pattern matching,
IMHO it's acceptable for having some features not
usable outside [], as acceptable as having features
usable from outside but not inside, which is the status
quo.
To this specific "ignore" functionality, restricting it
within structured binding gives us a long list of
.. // two dots
<>
- // minus, dash
~
:)
, while making it usable in other places is troublesome
int <placeholder> = get_raii_file_descriptor();
That RAII fd is implicitly convertible to int, so we
destroy the object and return an int? Or we restrict
the type to be `auto`? Oh wait, actually I need
`auto&&`! Welcome home, that is exactly how
structured binding handles the "capturing object",
and by doing this we subset the language in a
much larger scope...
--
Zhihao Yuan, ID lichray
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
___________________________________________________
4BSD -- http://blog.miator.net/
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 14:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Em segunda-feira, 11 de julho de 2016 11:08:34 UTC-3, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Tony V E
Hmmm
Maybe we should reserve _ as unusable in structured binding for now?
I consider it a wise move.
If structured binding alone supported a placeholder already, it could be
done in
a way that would support both auto [x, _, y] = ..., was well as auto [] =
...

Sent from my BlackBerry portable Babbage Device
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Tony V E
Original Message
From: Zhihao Yuan
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 2:02 AM
Subject: Re: [std-proposals] Re: Anonymous variables (moved "deferred destruction" topic)
On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 12:22 AM, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
The problem is that the time we get a mechanist to let variables
unnamed
Post by Francisco Lopes
(like
with got for types like Tony said), and I hope so this happens. Then we
will
Post by Francisco Lopes
end
up with two valid solutions for the RAII problem I guess. It would not
happen only
if placeholders are put at work in specific places solely, which
personally
Post by Francisco Lopes
I'd not
like.
Structured binding is a prototype for pattern matching,
IMHO it's acceptable for having some features not
usable outside [], as acceptable as having features
usable from outside but not inside, which is the status
quo.
To this specific "ignore" functionality, restricting it
within structured binding gives us a long list of
.. // two dots
<>
- // minus, dash
~
:)
, while making it usable in other places is troublesome
int <placeholder> = get_raii_file_descriptor();
That RAII fd is implicitly convertible to int, so we
destroy the object and return an int? Or we restrict
the type to be `auto`? Oh wait, actually I need
`auto&&`! Welcome home, that is exactly how
structured binding handles the "capturing object",
and by doing this we subset the language in a
much larger scope...
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Daniel Frey
2016-07-11 15:26:45 UTC
Permalink
What is the real problem that this thread is trying to solve? Users write:

std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx); // (1)

instead of

std::lock_guard<std::mutex> dummy(mtx); // (2)

and every attempt coming up with a new syntax like

auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx); // (3)

will not catch the above error at (1)! If I write (3), I could just as well write (2), it does not matter if I have to write dummy, dummy1, dummy2 (IMHO) - the real problem is when I create a temporary of std::lock_guard like in (1) that is immediately discarded.

Any solution which will prevent those bugs either has to make (1) an error or to extend its lifetime automatically similar to the effect of (2).

My 2ç.
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 15:37:35 UTC
Permalink
Removing from the language the problem regarding temporaries that
pop out of existence after end of expression was never my aim.

It's more about providing a feature than fixing a bug.
Post by Daniel Frey
std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx); // (1)
instead of
std::lock_guard<std::mutex> dummy(mtx); // (2)
and every attempt coming up with a new syntax like
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx); // (3)
will not catch the above error at (1)! If I write (3), I could just as
well write (2), it does not matter if I have to write dummy, dummy1, dummy2
(IMHO) - the real problem is when I create a temporary of std::lock_guard
like in (1) that is immediately discarded.
Any solution which will prevent those bugs either has to make (1) an error
or to extend its lifetime automatically similar to the effect of (2).
My 2ç.
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 15:49:53 UTC
Permalink
Of the solutions presented, many of which I think are useful, I'm
still in favor os something along the lines of the language providing
a placeholder naming mechanism.

My main bias regarding that is because: as you have *zero* on *counting*,
on *naming* you have a *placeholder*. This is what happens in many other
programming languages, Python, Haskell, Rust, ...

I'd wish C++ moved on and embedded/learned that.

Em segunda-feira, 11 de julho de 2016 12:37:36 UTC-3, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Removing from the language the problem regarding temporaries that
pop out of existence after end of expression was never my aim.
It's more about providing a feature than fixing a bug.
Post by Daniel Frey
std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx); // (1)
instead of
std::lock_guard<std::mutex> dummy(mtx); // (2)
and every attempt coming up with a new syntax like
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx); // (3)
will not catch the above error at (1)! If I write (3), I could just as
well write (2), it does not matter if I have to write dummy, dummy1, dummy2
(IMHO) - the real problem is when I create a temporary of std::lock_guard
like in (1) that is immediately discarded.
Any solution which will prevent those bugs either has to make (1) an
error or to extend its lifetime automatically similar to the effect of (2).
My 2ç.
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 16:30:06 UTC
Permalink
Em segunda-feira, 11 de julho de 2016 12:49:53 UTC-3, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Of the solutions presented, many of which I think are useful, I'm
still in favor os something along the lines of the language providing
a placeholder naming mechanism.
My main bias regarding that is because: as you have *zero* on *counting*,
on *naming* you have a *placeholder*. This is what happens in many other
programming languages, Python, Haskell, Rust, ...
I'd wish C++ moved on and embedded/learned that.
Ah OK,
There was another topic on the subject some months ago:

- throwaway variable:
https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msg/std-proposals/ioi76TkG6g4/G8WC37LVAAAJ

I've found it being referred at:

- Allowing unnammed loop variable in range-based for loops?
https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msg/std-proposals/ioi76TkG6g4/G8WC37LVAAAJ

That's another usecase, range-for loops...

Sorry I don't follow much the discussion group, but it seems
this subject has been poping up with some frequency.

As other languages show (Python, Haskell, Rust, Go,...), and as
people are requesting, having a placeholder name is the natural
solution, which ends up solving all the usecases presented here.
Post by Francisco Lopes
Em segunda-feira, 11 de julho de 2016 12:37:36 UTC-3, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Removing from the language the problem regarding temporaries that
pop out of existence after end of expression was never my aim.
It's more about providing a feature than fixing a bug.
Post by Daniel Frey
std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx); // (1)
instead of
std::lock_guard<std::mutex> dummy(mtx); // (2)
and every attempt coming up with a new syntax like
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx); // (3)
will not catch the above error at (1)! If I write (3), I could just as
well write (2), it does not matter if I have to write dummy, dummy1, dummy2
(IMHO) - the real problem is when I create a temporary of std::lock_guard
like in (1) that is immediately discarded.
Any solution which will prevent those bugs either has to make (1) an
error or to extend its lifetime automatically similar to the effect of (2).
My 2ç.
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Fabio Fracassi
2016-07-11 15:50:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Frey
std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx); // (1)
Catching this type of errors is taken care of in C++17 with the
attribute [[nodiscard]].
see http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2015/p0068r0.pdf
for details.



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Matthew Woehlke
2016-07-11 18:42:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Frey
std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx); // (1)
instead of
std::lock_guard<std::mutex> dummy(mtx); // (2)
and every attempt coming up with a new syntax like
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx); // (3)
will not catch the above error at (1)! If I write (3), I could just
as well write (2), it does not matter if I have to write dummy,
dummy1, dummy2 (IMHO) - the real problem is when I create a temporary
of std::lock_guard like in (1) that is immediately discarded.
Some folks (myself included) consider needing to provide a name to
already be a problem.
Post by Daniel Frey
Any solution which will prevent those bugs either has to make (1) an
error or to extend its lifetime automatically similar to the effect
of (2).
Doesn't [[nodiscard]] already accomplish this? Or at least offer a
significant improvement?
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Daniel Frey
2016-07-11 19:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Woehlke
Post by Daniel Frey
std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx); // (1)
instead of
std::lock_guard<std::mutex> dummy(mtx); // (2)
and every attempt coming up with a new syntax like
auto = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>(mtx); // (3)
will not catch the above error at (1)! If I write (3), I could just
as well write (2), it does not matter if I have to write dummy,
dummy1, dummy2 (IMHO) - the real problem is when I create a temporary
of std::lock_guard like in (1) that is immediately discarded.
Some folks (myself included) consider needing to provide a name to
already be a problem.
Some people (like me) don't consider it a big problem. That does not mean any of us is right, though - the question is how important it is compared to the many other things that could be improved and if it warrants a language change.
Post by Matthew Woehlke
Post by Daniel Frey
Any solution which will prevent those bugs either has to make (1) an
error or to extend its lifetime automatically similar to the effect
of (2).
Doesn't [[nodiscard]] already accomplish this? Or at least offer a
significant improvement?
Maybe, but the compiler is (AFAIK) only encouraged to give you some warning, it might just as well ignore the attribute completely. Unlikely, I know, but the important thing is, it is still "just" a warning. I usually compile with -Werror, but a lot of (commercial) projects I know of have lots of warnings which they ignore.

So even as it is an improvement, I could imagine other features like an automatically prolonged lifetime of a unbound value returned by a function or constructor call. Not saying this is better, just an alternative to consider. Probably depends on what are the use-cases you consider important. The difference is that you'd make it invisible while this thread, so far, is concentrating on explicitly prolonged lifetime. My feeling is that the C++ syntax is complicated enough for the caller, so I'd prefer a new attribute (or something else) on the library side, maybe:

class [[autoexpand_scope]] lock_guard { ... };

(needs better name, I know)
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 04:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For
structured binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed?
Remember the goal: you want an *object* to be unnamed, because you want
to use its construction and destruction only. The variables created by
structured binding are not objects; they're *references*. Their
destructors are irrelevant, so making them unnamed is equally irrelevant to
this particular goal.
That may look like the *original* goal in the previous thread, but to
tell the truth it's not my goal. The rationale
here is for unnamed variables. It's just about to cover the intention of
not providing names for things
that doesn't need them, as frequently happen (and will happen) in the
cases presented.
Don't try to solve every problem at once.
Why not? It's a simple solution that covers the relevant problem: having
a placeholder. It ends up
solving all in an understandable manner, in a uniform way.
But it is not a "simple solution". Indeed, I would go so far as to say
that any placeholder which is currently a valid identifier is not a
solution at all.
Restating that it's not just about reusing already valid identifiers.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Breaking people's perfectly valid code should not be considered a solution
unnamed variables are not *that* important.
I've asked before about a sample where the proposals I've endorsed would
break people's code, do you have one (seriously)?

For the case where _ can be overridden, there's no codebase that can
compile with variables of equal name are declared, same
applies for the solution where _ can't be referenced if declared more than
once in the same scope.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Also, last time we tried to get something "uniform", we got Uniform
Initialization. Which very much is not.
I ask why solve it in a case by case form?
Because it works. Not only does it work, it makes sense. That's one of the
nice things about `auto[]`: based solely on the rules of structured
binding, it does exactly what you want.
Indeed, as I think about it, if we ever wanted structured binding to be
able to not capture all of the elements, we wouldn't *want* it to use
placeholders. We would probably want `auto [x]` to bind to the first value
of any tuple-like type. If that type has 30 variables in it, I don't care;
even `auto [x, ...]` or whatever. I said that I wanted the first member, so
give it to me.
Given that, `auto []` would bind to none of the values. Therefore, it
would either be a compile error or it would work on anything, providing a
hidden object that would be destroyed at the end of scope.
You may like that, I don't. You are focusing on a special solution for the
sake of bad practice on multiple return. I'm looking for this solved:

auto [x, _, y] = foo()
auto [_, y, _] = bar()
auto [x, _] = baz()

Etc, which your solution where order matters, doesn't cover (besides not
covering the other case).
The time I get a tuple of 30 as a return, I'd be looking for a refactor not
support of the language for
pattern handling of that.
Post by Nicol Bolas
So really, I don't see this as a "case-by-case form". It's really the
right way to go for *both* problems ;)
Which both? You mean the correct way is to patch the language around the
same subject, but with
particular solutions?
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 04:33:11 UTC
Permalink
About "which both", nevermind. I got what you suggests covers both guards,
scope_exit
and structure binding, although for the last it doesn't look much useful as
a solution.

Em segunda-feira, 11 de julho de 2016 01:13:02 UTC-3, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For
structured binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed?
Remember the goal: you want an *object* to be unnamed, because you
want to use its construction and destruction only. The variables created by
structured binding are not objects; they're *references*. Their
destructors are irrelevant, so making them unnamed is equally irrelevant to
this particular goal.
That may look like the *original* goal in the previous thread, but to
tell the truth it's not my goal. The rationale
here is for unnamed variables. It's just about to cover the intention of
not providing names for things
that doesn't need them, as frequently happen (and will happen) in the
cases presented.
Don't try to solve every problem at once.
Why not? It's a simple solution that covers the relevant problem: having
a placeholder. It ends up
solving all in an understandable manner, in a uniform way.
But it is not a "simple solution". Indeed, I would go so far as to say
that any placeholder which is currently a valid identifier is not a
solution at all.
Restating that it's not just about reusing already valid identifiers.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Breaking people's perfectly valid code should not be considered a
solution to a problem. Not without *really good* reason. And let's face
facts: unnamed variables are not *that* important.
I've asked before about a sample where the proposals I've endorsed would
break people's code, do you have one (seriously)?
For the case where _ can be overridden, there's no codebase that can
compile with variables of equal name are declared, same
applies for the solution where _ can't be referenced if declared more than
once in the same scope.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Also, last time we tried to get something "uniform", we got Uniform
Initialization. Which very much is not.
I ask why solve it in a case by case form?
Because it works. Not only does it work, it makes sense. That's one of
the nice things about `auto[]`: based solely on the rules of structured
binding, it does exactly what you want.
Indeed, as I think about it, if we ever wanted structured binding to be
able to not capture all of the elements, we wouldn't *want* it to use
placeholders. We would probably want `auto [x]` to bind to the first value
of any tuple-like type. If that type has 30 variables in it, I don't care;
even `auto [x, ...]` or whatever. I said that I wanted the first member, so
give it to me.
Given that, `auto []` would bind to none of the values. Therefore, it
would either be a compile error or it would work on anything, providing a
hidden object that would be destroyed at the end of scope.
You may like that, I don't. You are focusing on a special solution for the
auto [x, _, y] = foo()
auto [_, y, _] = bar()
auto [x, _] = baz()
Etc, which your solution where order matters, doesn't cover (besides not
covering the other case).
The time I get a tuple of 30 as a return, I'd be looking for a refactor
not support of the language for
pattern handling of that.
Post by Nicol Bolas
So really, I don't see this as a "case-by-case form". It's really the
right way to go for *both* problems ;)
Which both? You mean the correct way is to patch the language around the
same subject, but with
particular solutions?
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Francisco Lopes
2016-07-11 04:40:16 UTC
Permalink
ah, correction, as far as I can see it doesn't work very well for normal
declarations
like with guards. Also, I have no idea whether structure binding should
support things
that I have no idea can be destructured or not. So it looks pretty much
trying to
sneak from recently added structure biding to other areas it's was not
thought for.

Em segunda-feira, 11 de julho de 2016 01:33:11 UTC-3, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
About "which both", nevermind. I got what you suggests covers both guards,
scope_exit
and structure binding, although for the last it doesn't look much useful
as a solution.
Em segunda-feira, 11 de julho de 2016 01:13:02 UTC-3, Francisco Lopes
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
Post by Nicol Bolas
Post by Francisco Lopes
That's interesting Nicol, but what about the other cases? For
structured binding itself
for example, how would I let bindings unnamed?
Remember the goal: you want an *object* to be unnamed, because you
want to use its construction and destruction only. The variables created by
structured binding are not objects; they're *references*. Their
destructors are irrelevant, so making them unnamed is equally irrelevant to
this particular goal.
That may look like the *original* goal in the previous thread, but to
tell the truth it's not my goal. The rationale
here is for unnamed variables. It's just about to cover the intention
of not providing names for things
that doesn't need them, as frequently happen (and will happen) in the
cases presented.
Don't try to solve every problem at once.
having a placeholder. It ends up
solving all in an understandable manner, in a uniform way.
But it is not a "simple solution". Indeed, I would go so far as to say
that any placeholder which is currently a valid identifier is not a
solution at all.
Restating that it's not just about reusing already valid identifiers.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Breaking people's perfectly valid code should not be considered a
solution to a problem. Not without *really good* reason. And let's face
facts: unnamed variables are not *that* important.
I've asked before about a sample where the proposals I've endorsed would
break people's code, do you have one (seriously)?
For the case where _ can be overridden, there's no codebase that can
compile with variables of equal name are declared, same
applies for the solution where _ can't be referenced if declared more
than once in the same scope.
Post by Nicol Bolas
Also, last time we tried to get something "uniform", we got Uniform
Initialization. Which very much is not.
I ask why solve it in a case by case form?
Because it works. Not only does it work, it makes sense. That's one of
the nice things about `auto[]`: based solely on the rules of structured
binding, it does exactly what you want.
Indeed, as I think about it, if we ever wanted structured binding to be
able to not capture all of the elements, we wouldn't *want* it to use
placeholders. We would probably want `auto [x]` to bind to the first value
of any tuple-like type. If that type has 30 variables in it, I don't care;
even `auto [x, ...]` or whatever. I said that I wanted the first member, so
give it to me.
Given that, `auto []` would bind to none of the values. Therefore, it
would either be a compile error or it would work on anything, providing a
hidden object that would be destroyed at the end of scope.
You may like that, I don't. You are focusing on a special solution for the
auto [x, _, y] = foo()
auto [_, y, _] = bar()
auto [x, _] = baz()
Etc, which your solution where order matters, doesn't cover (besides not
covering the other case).
The time I get a tuple of 30 as a return, I'd be looking for a refactor
not support of the language for
pattern handling of that.
Post by Nicol Bolas
So really, I don't see this as a "case-by-case form". It's really the
right way to go for *both* problems ;)
Which both? You mean the correct way is to patch the language around the
same subject, but with
particular solutions?
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Zhihao Yuan
2016-07-11 00:49:03 UTC
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Post by Nicol Bolas
Wait a minute. Let's think about what we just added to C++: structured
auto [a, b] = ...;
Currently this syntax is outlawed, but I expect that
in the future we extend the identifier-list inside
structured binding to support pack expansion:

auto [a...] = expr;

where an empty pack naturally decompose an
empty product type. Sooner or later you will
find that smoothly and consistently handle the
zero cases will reward you back.
--
Zhihao Yuan, ID lichray
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
___________________________________________________
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Nicol Bolas
2016-07-11 01:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhihao Yuan
Post by Nicol Bolas
Wait a minute. Let's think about what we just added to C++: structured
auto [a, b] = ...;
Currently this syntax is outlawed,
I didn't mean `...` as in parameter pack. I meant `...` as in `something`.
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Matthew Woehlke
2016-07-11 18:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nicol Bolas
Wait a minute. Let's think about what we just added to C++: structured
auto [a, b] = ...;
Now, the way structured binding works is that it takes the expression and
stores it in a hidden variable. It then gets references to the members,
either directly from public members or with a particular interface. That's
auto &&temp = make_pair(3, 4.5f);
auto &a = temp.first;
auto &b = temp.second;
auto [] = ...;
You get an error because the number of bindings does not match the
number of things to be bound (i.e. the PT-size). *This is a good thing.*

For that to work, you'd need slicing:

auto [] = ...[0:0];

(...or unnamed placeholders, but those only work if the PT-size is
known, or... if you don't use unpacking, in which case we're back to the
original proposal.)

That, or you're defining a new thing that *looks* like unpacking, but is
really something very different. Ick.
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Matthew
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